We chat to Liesl Hager whose area of expertise are legal academics, legal writing and research, specifically in the area Private Law.
I came across Liesl’s profile on LinkedIn and it stood out to me because of the different route that she has taken with her law qualification. Most of the interviews done on this platform have focused on women in law who chose to practice law as either an attorney or advocate. But I think it is important to also read stories about law graduates who do not follow the traditional trajectory.
“I do not want to practice the existing law. I want to actively contribute to developing the law.” – Liesl Hager
Another point that stood out to me in this interview is Liesl’s take on feminism. The struggle to reconcile with the ‘modern’ (fourth) wave of feminism.
Below is our interview with the phenomenal woman in law, Liesl Hager.
FWIL:
What inspired you to study law?
LH:
The question of what inspires a person to pursue a certain interest or field, is a hard one to answer, especially if there is no ‘single source’ of inspiration, but rather a collective experience which has prompted, or guided, you into a certain field.
From a young age I have had a love for law. In a pursuit to not only learn but also teach law, I have managed to find my niche in the legal academics. My biggest inspiration to pursue law, is perhaps the motivation to teach others about our legal heritage, development and opportunities. This simultaneously empowers people by giving them the necessary legal knowledge to stand up for those things which they believe in, or which they want to advocate. Pursuing legal studies was never an attempt to only empower myself, but an effort to assist those around me and contribute to our legal academics as a whole.
FWIL:
You are currently an LLD candidate, why a specific interest in taking the academic route as opposed to going into practice?
LH:
I commenced with articles in 2019. After completing three months at an amazing firm, I decided to quit my articles and pursue the academic career, which I have a strong inclination to. This decision was not an easy one, as people often state, ‘oh, you have an LLB, how is it being a lawyer?’ I am not a lawyer and the practice did not meet my academic needs, if this makes sense. It is hard to explain a decision which I have made, in retrospect, without trotting on the philosophical grounds of happiness and a stimulating work environment.
I ultimately entered practice because it is what was expected of me. It is what most candidates do after completing an LLB. It is the intention with which most students commence their LLB studies in the first place. The contribution which I can make in the academics is greater. For this reason I decided to pursue my LLD after the completion of my LLM.
FWIL:
Why a specific interest in Marketing and Publishing?
LH:
From 2016 I have tutored various Private Law subjects at UP. Being an AKM (academic associate) for Private Law taught me valuable lessons as to the field of lecturing and mentoring LLB students. Upon my return to the academics in 2019, after my brief 3 months of articles, I decided to start working in the marketing and publishing realm of legal academics. Working for the Centre for Human Rights as a publishing, marketing and research assistant has broadened my experience of the legal field tremendously.
I now find myself in an environment where I am able to empower others, by using my legal expertise and knowledge in a creative way. Knowledge about law and the empowerment which this knowledge offers is not limited to LLB students. This is a valuable lesson I have learnt during my time in publishing. Publishing legal information, monographs, legal journals and books is very satisfactory, especially considering the fact that we distribute and make available all our publications free of charge. This is right up my alley as I am able to learn and also teach law, although it is not in a classroom, but rather via distribution of information and aiding upcoming authors in their endeavour to contribute to the legal academics.
FWIL:
What tips and advice would you give to someone who is also interested in taking the academic route? How do they go about this?
LH:
You should note that following a career in the academics is no easy option. It is not necessarily straight forward and there is no set timeline, milestones or clearly structured procedure to follow. Going about the academic route usually entails the completion of your LLB, where after most academics complete their LLM and LLD. During this time, most academics write journal articles and also reviews of existing legal literature. Upon the completion of the LLD thesis, most academics convert their thesis into a book, which is a great opportunity for publishing their first book. Most academics also pursue a career in lecturing at academic institutions during and after the completion of their studies. The research and writing continues.
My first piece of advice is: Do not hesitate. Although the academic niche is often perceived as being quite ‘exclusive’, it is actually the opposite. If you have a passion for research and writing, you should pursue it. Pursuing the academics does not exclude the possibility of a career in practice, as numerous people pursue both. In my opinion, the academics should not be perceived as a ‘last option’ because other ventures did not pan out as planned. Additionally, it is not fair to compare the workload of practice versus the academics, as the academic field is one which is not stagnant and continuously develops and expands.
Furthermore, it is important to unapologetically and fearlessly be ‘YOU’. By this I mean, you should research and write about the things you feel strongly about. Of course, constructive criticism is part of the package and you should always use it to your benefit. Be open to criticism, especially if you are researching and writing about topics that are controversial. Writing is like art, not everyone will like it, but it is a reflection of your thoughts, time and effort.
Lastly, do not let the opinions of those following the route into practice deter you from rather following the academic route. ‘Why did you study law if you do not want to be a lawyer?’ My family, friends, colleagues and strangers often ask me this question. The answer, for me, is quite simple: ‘Well, because I am willing and able to contribute to “the law” in another way, one which practice does not necessarily offer. Law is my passion. I do not want to practice the existing law. I want to actively contribute to developing the law.’
FWIL:
Please tell us about your proofreading, editing and translating services.
LH:
Entering the publishing field was a welcome change from the lecturing experience I have gained throughout the years. Upon completion of my LLM I noticed that a lot of students are in dire need of affordable proofreading and editing services. The services of most proof-readers, editors and translators are extremely expensive. My goal is to make these services more widely available at affordable rates. I would also like to inspire and encourage other potential proof-readers, editors and translators to do the same.
FWIL:
What does being an alpha female mean to you and would you describe yourself as one?
LH:
I would definitely describe myself as an alpha female. For me, this means that I am, unapologetically and fearlessly myself. I do not stand back for any challenge. I work hard to achieve the goals that I have set for myself. I do not attempt to ‘explain’ the reasons for who I am or the decisions I make. I love engaging in debates and learning new things. It is not about being ‘right’ or ‘winning’. Being an alpha female means you are a female with a strong personality and others often look up to you, as idol or inspiration, or even leader, as you possess the ability to instil trust in people.
FWIL:
Do you identify as a feminist? (Why/why not)
LH:
A ‘first wave feminist’, definitely. I regularly struggle to reconcile myself with the ‘modern’ (fourth) wave of feminism that often tends to be represented by aggressive or antagonistic individuals. I have found myself in the position where modern (fourth) wave feminists often feel that, if you are a ‘female’ you must be a feminist. The modern (fourth) wave of feminism is frequently misrepresented as being a ‘men-are-trash’ movement. For this reason, I would rather be an advocate for women’s rights and a humanitarian, as opposed to being labelled ‘modern feminist’. Despite labels and movements, I attended an all-girls high school and the core ideologies of women empowerment and equal rights are rooted in my fundamental values. My favourite quote is ‘not all females are represented by feminism and not all men are chauvinists’. Watch ‘The Red Pill’ documentary.
FWIL:
What does women empowerment mean to you?
LH:
The idea and pursuit of women empowerment does not necessarily entail this grandiose gesture to aggressively advocate for the rights of all women. Women empowerment begins by empowering yourself, first. Being an empowered fearless female will automatically inspire others to follow in your footsteps. Women empowerment, in my opinion, is the acceptance of all women as they are, in the pursuit of empowering them in their goals. This represents a sisterhood that is built on trust and respect. This respect includes the respect of another woman’s ideologies, her values and her past. A ‘judgement free’ environment where women are able to engage in open conversations pertaining to, especially, issues of sexism, gender based violence and abuse. If we, as women, are able to openly and fearlessly engage in critical conversations with one another, we will be able to empower each other, whether it be socio-political, socio-economical or just social empowerment.
FWIL:
The journey of most legal professionals is not always easy. What are some of the lessons you have learned along the way and how have they shaped your outlook on life?
LH:
The most important lesson that I have learnt is that you are not alone. Secondly, nothing is as simple as it seems. Lastly, the plans that you have made for yourself and that vision that you have of your future is most definitely subject to change. You must have the courage to seek advice. Do not ever hesitate to accept a helping hand. I often find women very willing to help, but reluctant to accept it. There is absolutely no shame in asking for guidance, assistance or help. Your mental health is also much more important than you think. Take care of it.
FWIL:
What is the best advice you would give to a woman in law?
LH:
Be fearless and unapologetically ‘YOU’ whilst maintaining the boundaries of respect and trust! It is no secret that the world of law, especially practice, is predominantly male. You should not let this intimidate you. As Marilyn Monroe said: ‘I don’t mind living in a man’s world, as long as I can be a woman in it.’ I know most women enter the legal work force with certain preconceived ideas. Allow the experience to change you, for the better. Allow yourself to grow and learn.
FWIL:
What recent change/amendment in the law (in your country/state) has caught your attention? (Do you agree with the change? Why/why not)
LH:
Where to begin. The Covid-19 pandemic has been in the spotlight for a few months now. On this note I am inclined to engage in a short discussion on the steps the South African Government has taken in the past weeks. I have noticed that various people are confused as to the announcement of a ‘state of disaster’ as opposed to a ‘state of emergency’. As we are in a state of disaster, I am inclined to agree with the steps and measures taken by our government in this time. It is not necessarily understood by the general public who have little or no legal background. I applaud the measures taken to penalise the spread of ‘fake news’ during this time.
In the private law realm, I am excited to review the intended ‘single marriage statute’ which is currently being developed by the Law Reform Commission. This is an exciting project which seeks uniformity and legal certainty as to the current diverse set of legal requirements and consequences of civil marriages, civil unions, customary marriages, Muslim and possibly other religious marriages.
FWIL:
Our world is constantly changing, in your opinion, what are some of the challenges that legal professionals will face in future?
LH:
In future, legal professionals may definitely be faced with challenges pertaining to the continuously changing legal environment. It is essential to stay updated on the latest developments in our law. A problem legal students may face, as a result of the Covid-19 pandemic, relates to the elimination of contact classes and implementation of online learning. This will be a major challenge for various students, based on a variety of factors. Furthermore, legal professionals will soon find themselves in a position which they have never been, as the Covid-19 pandemic affects various professions, locally and globally. It is difficult to pinpoint exact challenges that legal professionals may face.
FWIL:
How do you meet other professionals in your field and what are some of your effective networking skills?
LH:
I meet most professionals in my field through work related matters, such as meetings. Furthermore I actively engage on platforms such as LinkedIn and academia.edu in order to link up with other professionals in my field. Effective networking skills differ from person to person. I think it is important to ultimately differentiate between a professional relationship and a friendship. Maintaining a professional relationship with other professionals in my field is essential. A good professional relationship is built on trust, which takes some time. I meet new people on a weekly basis and remain in contact with most of them for work purposes. Over the course of time, these professional relationships may strengthen. Networking is an active attempt, on your behalf. Make an effort to engage with new people and also, to strengthen existing professional relationships. Do not force a connection where it does not exist.
FWIL:
What does the term “role model” mean to you? Is there a particular woman in your life that you consider a role model?
LH:
A role model, for me, is a person which I look up to. A woman that inspires me to pursue my goals. My role models are not superstars or famous people. My role models are often people whose names I do not even know. Some of my former students inspired me. Seeing another woman in a grocery store, for example, may also serve as inspiration. Just observing other women in general and admiring their achievements is all the inspiration I need. I love scrolling through social media and seeing all the women fulfilling their goals. I celebrate with them.
FWIL:
What books have you read that have greatly influenced your life?
LH:
‘A little book of mind power’ (2004) is a book written by Uri Geller. I received this book as a gift from my father at the age of 12. This book has most definitely had a profound effect on the way I view life and the power I possess. This book has inspired me to believe in my abilities and develop them.
FWIL:
What would you tell your younger self?
LH:
‘Take a break’. I think, my high school ‘self’ obsessed too much about academics and socialised too little. As for my younger self, during my undergraduate studies, I would say ‘take care of your mental health’. Often remind yourself of your goals. Do not give up. But also, do not overwork yourself to the point of exhaustion. Take a break. Socialise. Most importantly, take care of your mental health, I cannot stress this enough.
FWIL:
How do you remain autonomous while working in the legal field?
LH:
Remaining autonomous is a personality trait rather than an active decision, in my opinion. I think that being able to remain autonomous is important, for various reasons. Being consciously aware of the decisions you make and the reasons on which you base them is essential, as it forms part of your identity. Your professional, social and personal identity is one which you need to develop and constantly reflect on. Making independent and uncoerced decisions are important, but so is your personal development and growth.
FWIL:
What is your take on mentorship and are you open to mentoring young lawyers or law students?
LH:
Although mentorship is very important, mentors should not influence their subjects according to their own will. Being a mentor, for me, entails guidance and support. A mentor is not someone who does the work for you or sets out all the steps. It is someone that reassures you when you need it and guides you with appropriate advice. I think I mentor a lot of young lawyers, law students and aspiring academics without even knowing it. I often find myself sending a voice-note to a former student regarding advice on legal subjects etc. I also often find myself reassuring former students that the options after LLB extend further than just going into practice. For this reason, I am open to mentoring young lawyers, law students and aspiring academics.
FWIL:
How can people reach out to you? (social media handles)
LH:
The best way to reach me for legal related questions would be via email (lieslhagerlaw@gmail.com). I do engage with young professionals on LinkedIn (Liesl Hager) as often as I can. Furthermore, other social media platforms are not quite appropriate, as they are more personal than professional. I am however on all social media platforms such as Facebook (Liesl Hager), Twitter (@liesl_za), Instagram (liesl_hager) and LinkedIn (Liesl Hager).